SL is a good school Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone needs to stop attacking these kids at SL.
> Take your frustrations out on the school board
> but leave these children alone. They didn't ask
> for any of this. In fact I know most of them
> could care less if your kid goes to SL next year.
> I would venture to guess that one of the main
> reasons why any SL kids or parents support RD is
> purely a backlash reaction from all the criticism
> some of you people have directed at their
> school/teachers/children.

no one is criticizing the kids...

they are criticizing:

- the performance of SL and its pyramid (e.g. why so few kids take SAT and why they perform so poorly)
- the behavior of the PTSA and the SB in the RD process
- the fact that SL already recieved a higher level of resources
- the fact that additional scarce resources are being spent on non-critical - issues such as cooking and guitar when the US has an international skills shortage

and mostly they are complaining that they were sucked into solving the performance crisis at SL and hughes against their will and with no justification

all of which are entirely justified

SL and SB laid out this battlefield and started the fight - what the hell did they expect?

Same song, different day. MV is undercapacity or underutilized. MV has high FRM numbers. MV is struggling.

What about them? Why isn't the SB rescuing that school?? Particularly since there are 450 white kids over in SOCO busting out the walls.

Send Bradsher's kids over to help their school!

you do have a choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Sorry, I am right and you are wrong. I
> personally
> > know 3 children who have parents who work for
> FCPS
> > (not Oakton) who have successfully PP'd their
> > child to Oakton (from SL). I won't reveal
> names
> > as I don't want to mess with their lives, but I
> do
> > think there is an unfairness issue here. These
> > are families who tried to PP out of SL due to
> > IB/AP and were then routed to Herndon. They
> then
> > tried again and got in due to their employment
> > with FCPS. Also, why should I get a teaching
> > certificate? Oh, that's right, to get front of
> > the line priviges for my children? Weird
> > suggestion! If it's not fair for them, it
> > wouldn't be fair for me either.
>
> And they told you they got what they wanted
> because they are FCPS employees? Perhaps they
> appealed the Herndon decision. I maintain (having
> been a FCPS employee and as stated not getting any
> kind of preferential treatment) that I am right
> and you are wrong. They must have appealed..you
> too have a right to appeal if your pupil placement
> request doesn't go through.
>
> It isn't a weird suggestion by the way. You feel
> they have rights above yours; I say they don't.
> The only way for you to actually find out would be
> to be in the system.
>
> You do realize that retail employees get discounts
> and perks..how unfair that I can't get a discount
> on my purchases..
>
> Truly, you need to get a grip. Were you denied
> pupil placement? It's like you don't have enough
> to complain about. I agree the redistricting
> wasn't thought out well due to not including
> Langley, but you seem to be grasping at straws to
> find things to complain about now.


Ah, I see you're getting personal now. Let's get a grip...what a silly and trite way to respond. Since you can't argue back with logic (or anything that resembles common sense), you start to throw personal barbs. Why are so offended by the idea that FCPS employees get unfair perks--and that someone is saying that it's unfair? And comparing a PP perk to 15 percent off at Sears or Walmart...what a bizarre comparison. (I really hope you are NOT a teacher.)

Except for this very special and unfair perk for FCPS employees, the only students who qualify to PP to Oakton are those with sibs already at Oakton, those who are taking Geometry in 8th grade and qualify for multivariable calc in 12th grade (because Herndon doesn't offer it) or those who have signed up for American Sign Language. (BTW, my child has PP'd to Oakton.) Now,don't get me wrong, I feel for every family who wanted Oakton and planned on Oakton, but aren't getting Oakton. But, I think it's unfair that FCPS employees have this special perk to place anywhere. This is not like a retail 15 percent off. If anything they should be setting and example: ALL FCPS are great.

MT Vernon is next Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Same song, different day. MV is undercapacity or
> underutilized. MV has high FRM numbers. MV is
> struggling.
>
> What about them? Why isn't the SB rescuing that
> school?? Particularly since there are 450 white
> kids over in SOCO busting out the walls.
>
> Send Bradsher's kids over to help their school!

don't worry - with PW clamping down on illegals under-capacity won't be an issue at MV for long

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/27/AR2008042702432.html

Fair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Ah, I see you're getting personal now. Let's get a
> grip...what a silly and trite way to respond.
> Since you can't argue back with logic (or anything
> that resembles common sense), you start to throw
> personal barbs. Why are so offended by the idea
> that FCPS employees get unfair perks--and that
> someone is saying that it's unfair? And comparing
> a PP perk to 15 percent off at Sears or
> Walmart...what a bizarre comparison. (I really
> hope you are NOT a teacher.)
>
> Except for this very special and unfair perk for
> FCPS employees, the only students who qualify to
> PP to Oakton are those with sibs already at
> Oakton, those who are taking Geometry in 8th grade
> and qualify for multivariable calc in 12th grade
> (because Herndon doesn't offer it) or those who
> have signed up for American Sign Language. (BTW,
> my child has PP'd to Oakton.) Now,don't get me
> wrong, I feel for every family who wanted Oakton
> and planned on Oakton, but aren't getting Oakton.
> But, I think it's unfair that FCPS employees have
> this special perk to place anywhere. This is not
> like a retail 15 percent off. If anything they
> should be setting and example: ALL FCPS are great.

Very funny response. I am the one using illogical statements? First off FCPS employees do not have the right to pupil place anywhere. Thus, your whole argument is illogical, they don't have an "very special and unfair perk"

You state you "know 3 families" doing what you claim, yet I know that these special perks don't exist as you have defined them.

Fair, here is my proof that what I said is correct. The student can be placed at the employee's work location or the school closest to that location. (similar to your benefit of choosing the school closest to the base school or the school closest to your home). This is not an unfair benefit, nor do they jump in line ahead of anyone (as evidenced by my children remaining on the SACC waitlist for 4 years) and as evidenced by Woodson employees being told it might not be approved for them due to overcrowding.

Please see D under why is a student allowed to transfer. http://www.fcps.edu/DIT/forms/se222.pdf

You do have a choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair, here is my proof that what I said is
> correct. The student can be placed at the
> employee's work location or the school closest to
> that location. (similar to your benefit of
> choosing the school closest to the base school or
> the school closest to your home). This is not an
> unfair benefit, nor do they jump in line ahead of
> anyone (as evidenced by my children remaining on
> the SACC waitlist for 4 years) and as evidenced by
> Woodson employees being told it might not be
> approved for them due to overcrowding.
>
> Please see D under why is a student allowed to
> transfer. http://www.fcps.edu/DIT/forms/se222.pdf

so why can't I have my kids placed at the school closest to my workplace?

That would make a heck of a difference to my work life balance.

Plus it would be a real-winner for parents who live in Reston and work in Langley

why not my kids? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> so why can't I have my kids placed at the school
> closest to my workplace?
>
> That would make a heck of a difference to my work
> life balance.
>
> Plus it would be a real-winner for parents who
> live in Reston and work in Langley


Gosh, life is so unfair, isn't it? Wouldn't it be wonderful if the teachers could come to your home, that would be a real-winner for all parents.


And actually, you can use your workplace as a means of pupil placing ES and MS children, provided the daycare is closest to your workplace. That is the childcare/daycare provision. Many families choose daycare close to their workplace and others close to their home.

At anyrate, all forms are processed as they are received. There is no jumping ahead in line or any other unfair perk.

You do have a choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair, here is my proof that what I said is
> correct. The student can be placed at the
> employee's work location or the school closest to
> that location. (similar to your benefit of
> choosing the school closest to the base school or
> the school closest to your home). This is not an
> unfair benefit, nor do they jump in line ahead of
> anyone (as evidenced by my children remaining on
> the SACC waitlist for 4 years) and as evidenced by
> Woodson employees being told it might not be
> approved for them due to overcrowding.
>
> Please see D under why is a student allowed to
> transfer. http://www.fcps.edu/DIT/forms/se222.pdf


Sorry, I wish I could provide names and scenarios, but I won't violate their privacy. I know that 2 of the parents I am speaking about do not work anywhere near Oakton (both work in the elementary school level) and I'm not sure about the other although I know she also works in an elementary school too. It's an unfair perk any way you look at it. They are getting head of the line pivileges. Sorry you don't see it that way, but it's true. The only way to even the playing field is to allow all students to be able to PP to schools nearest their parent's employment. Otherwise, the FCPS employees are getting a benefit that others are not. (I see you have dropped your retail discount analogy...smart move.)

Maybe with the illegals filling up Mount Vernon they can move up from position 20 of 25 HS in critical reading?

Is this Storcks legacy?




don't worry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MT Vernon is next Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Same song, different day. MV is undercapacity
> or
> > underutilized. MV has high FRM numbers. MV is
> > struggling.
> >
> > What about them? Why isn't the SB rescuing that
> > school?? Particularly since there are 450 white
> > kids over in SOCO busting out the walls.
> >
> > Send Bradsher's kids over to help their school!
>
> don't worry - with PW clamping down on illegals
> under-capacity won't be an issue at MV for long
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic
> le/2008/04/27/AR2008042702432.html

I feel sorry for the other schools in Storck's district-they get nothing from him. He is so obsessed with getting this middle school built for SOCO-I bet he spends 75% of his time on it. It is really sad that these other kids get ignored. Some of these other schools are really hurting.

Hopefully all the other voters will remember being ignored by him and we will finally get rid of him.

Dan is too busy to care about MV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel sorry for the other schools in Storck's
> district-they get nothing from him. He is so
> obsessed with getting this middle school built for
> SOCO-I bet he spends 75% of his time on it. It is
> really sad that these other kids get ignored.
> Some of these other schools are really hurting.
>
> Hopefully all the other voters will remember being
> ignored by him and we will finally get rid of him.

The one thing that the RD showed us was that we're all on our own

We have to look after our own kids futures because no-one (especially the SB) is going to help - every step will be a fight, protecting anything you've got is going to be a fight - or your kids are going to be shafted with no warning, on the basis of some arbitrary whim by some self serving official

Welcome to the future of society

Out of 25 high schools Mount Vernon is ranked last in Math.

2007 499 dead last.

Storck's legacy.

I think he better start paying attention to Mount Vernon and not SOCO.


Dan is too busy to care about MV Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel sorry for the other schools in Storck's
> district-they get nothing from him. He is so
> obsessed with getting this middle school built for
> SOCO-I bet he spends 75% of his time on it. It is
> really sad that these other kids get ignored.
> Some of these other schools are really hurting.
>
> Hopefully all the other voters will remember being
> ignored by him and we will finally get rid of him.

what did they expect? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SL is a good school Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Everyone needs to stop attacking these kids at
> SL.
> > Take your frustrations out on the school board
> > but leave these children alone. They didn't
> ask
> > for any of this. In fact I know most of them
> > could care less if your kid goes to SL next
> year.
> > I would venture to guess that one of the main
> > reasons why any SL kids or parents support RD
> is
> > purely a backlash reaction from all the
> criticism
> > some of you people have directed at their
> > school/teachers/children.
>
> no one is criticizing the kids...
>
> they are criticizing:
>
> - the performance of SL and its pyramid (e.g. why
> so few kids take SAT and why they perform so
> poorly)
> - the behavior of the PTSA and the SB in the RD
> process
> - the fact that SL already recieved a higher level
> of resources
> - the fact that additional scarce resources are
> being spent on non-critical - issues such as
> cooking and guitar when the US has an
> international skills shortage
>
> and mostly they are complaining that they were
> sucked into solving the performance crisis at SL
> and hughes against their will and with no
> justification
>
> all of which are entirely justified
>
> SL and SB laid out this battlefield and started
> the fight - what the hell did they expect?



To kick your sorry ass, which is exactly what happened....and keeps happening. The amen chorus sings only on this blog...otherwise you are a freakin' island, you pathetic whiners.

sherman's march Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what did they expect? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SL is a good school Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Everyone needs to stop attacking these kids
> at
> > SL.
> > > Take your frustrations out on the school
> board
> > > but leave these children alone. They didn't
> > ask
> > > for any of this. In fact I know most of them
> > > could care less if your kid goes to SL next
> > year.
> > > I would venture to guess that one of the main
> > > reasons why any SL kids or parents support RD
> > is
> > > purely a backlash reaction from all the
> > criticism
> > > some of you people have directed at their
> > > school/teachers/children.
> >
> > no one is criticizing the kids...
> >
> > they are criticizing:
> >
> > - the performance of SL and its pyramid (e.g.
> why
> > so few kids take SAT and why they perform so
> > poorly)
> > - the behavior of the PTSA and the SB in the RD
> > process
> > - the fact that SL already recieved a higher
> level
> > of resources
> > - the fact that additional scarce resources are
> > being spent on non-critical - issues such as
> > cooking and guitar when the US has an
> > international skills shortage
> >
> > and mostly they are complaining that they were
> > sucked into solving the performance crisis at
> SL
> > and hughes against their will and with no
> > justification
> >
> > all of which are entirely justified
> >
> > SL and SB laid out this battlefield and started
> > the fight - what the hell did they expect?
>
>
>
> To kick your sorry ass, which is exactly what
> happened....and keeps happening. The amen chorus
> sings only on this blog...otherwise you are a
> freakin' island, you pathetic whiners.

To the other poster moaning about the % of SL vs. Madison students taking the SAT, I ask:

1. Why do you care? If your kids is in the group that takes the SATs at South Lakes, he or she almost certainly will have a motivated, high-performing group of peers. The SAT scores for those students at South Lakes who do take the SAT are around the county average.

2. If you think Madison is necessarily everything that a HS possibly could be, you are deluded and setting yourself up for some serious disappointment. Go to the GreatSchools site and read some of the parent reviews - here are two (one recent; the other from early 2007, before the whole RD fight):

"This school is just bad. As a former student and now a parent, I have quite a bit of experience. My children are not in any sports programs, and are therefore pushed to the side. Also, way too many of the teachers are unqualified, and those who aren't are often incompetent. The science equipment is not up to par with schools in the surrounding communities. Students are valued only for the funding that their high test scores can bring to the school. Over all, a very cold environment"

"We hand picked Madison when we learned that we were moving to the area. I must say that all the hype is undeserved. Fairfax County schools, and Madison in particular, are focused exclusively on test scores. Students do not have to learn, simply regurgitate for the test and move on. Teachers are for the most part unimpressive and the school is dangerously overcrowded to the point where teachers are pushing carts from room to room because there aren't enough classrooms to go around. The administration is unresponsive at best. Teachers can choose whether or not to show daily announcements so students are uninformed. The course offerings are excellent."

Fact is either SL or Madison could turn out to be a great school for you or your kids - or it might not be.

"Some MS's are trying to beef up their numbers in advanced math courses, by allowing students who normally would be in regular math courses in (i.e. not worrying about results on the IOWA test or previous SOL's)"

Do you have evidence of this? My kids went to Carson, and the school followed the rules on who took algebra in 7th grade: only those who qualified. I wouldn't believe anything else unless there is actual proof, not rumor or second-hand news. (like the second-hand news that more kids got into TJ who weren't in geometry in 8th grade, which is not true)

Puhleese Wrote:

> To the other poster moaning about the % of SL vs.
> Madison students taking the SAT, I ask:
>
> 1. Why do you care?

because of the waste of talent

that gap represents a complete waste of talent, waste of opportunity and waste of investment

The average SAT score is far lower and thats the average of a far smaller proportion of kids - who should be expected to score better as they're the top of the curve

why would you send your kids to a school where they're less likely to take SAT's and if they do are likely to score far lower - ditto SOLs


why do you think its okay to force people to send their kids there?

I happen to support NCLB and all that it represents. It gives parents transparency and motivates the school district to finally fix their failing schools and attack the minority achievement gaps.

Parents who continue to support these weaker schools are delusional. These schools with low SAT scores and participation rates and high drop outs are going to focus on the low hanging fruit.

If your kid is a high achiever they are much better in a school with better averages. They will get more resources and the staff will not be consumed with helping those who struggle.

There are so many resources to go around. You have to be realistic.

Fair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Sorry, I wish I could provide names and scenarios,
> but I won't violate their privacy. I know that 2
> of the parents I am speaking about do not work
> anywhere near Oakton (both work in the elementary
> school level) and I'm not sure about the other
> although I know she also works in an elementary
> school too. It's an unfair perk any way you look
> at it. They are getting head of the line
> pivileges. Sorry you don't see it that way, but
> it's true. The only way to even the playing field
> is to allow all students to be able to PP to
> schools nearest their parent's employment.
> Otherwise, the FCPS employees are getting a
> benefit that others are not.

I don't need their names or want them. The policy is the policy, so somehow they are getting around it. Perhaps the ES feeds into Oakton, and in that case they could do it, but if it doesn't feed into the MS that feeds into Oakton, they are pupil placed for some reason other than their parent's work place. It is not a matter of how "I see it"

Their is no need to level the playing field. I am sorry you feel that there is a need to do that. Your opinion makes things in your view valid, but that is just not so. As you can see from the pupil placement form they should be using either their workplace, or the closest school to their workplace, and in some cases as perhaps this the feeder hs from their work place.

If they have gone around the legalities that is another issue. Just like many parents drive their kids to bus stops that go to their pupil placed schools to avoid transporting their kids all the way...not allowed but it does happen.

In most cases it would be difficult for a staff memeber to pupil place to a school that is "no where near their school workplace" because of the issues of transporting their kids...would make life and the commute more difficult rather than easier.

not so fast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Some MS's are trying to beef up their numbers in
> advanced math courses, by allowing students who
> normally would be in regular math courses in (i.e.
> not worrying about results on the IOWA test or
> previous SOL's)"
>
> Do you have evidence of this? My kids went to
> Carson, and the school followed the rules on who
> took algebra in 7th grade: only those who
> qualified. I wouldn't believe anything else unless
> there is actual proof, not rumor or second-hand
> news. (like the second-hand news that more kids
> got into TJ who weren't in geometry in 8th grade,
> which is not true)

Yes, this is happening at Glasgow MS where they are putting in many more kids into the 6th grade compacted math than in any previous years, without the kids having the necessary math background (Glasgow, Holmes and Poe are 6th-8th). They have gone from the strictest adherance to the IOWA cut off 4 years ago, to essentially saying "if you want your kid in Algebra in 7th they are in" They are boasting about the number of students in the compacted math, who then head into 7th grade Algebra totally unprepared. (it doesn't seem to matter how they did in compacted or on the SOLs IOWA. the teacher does advice the parents of struggling kids not to push them, but the principal okays all requests and boasts about her advanced numbers. The kids left over in the regular 6th grade math are essentially (though not entirely) ESOL and special ed, who didn't pass their 5th grade math SOL's and won't pass the 6th grade and on and on...

waste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Puhleese Wrote:
>
> > To the other poster moaning about the % of SL
> vs.
> > Madison students taking the SAT, I ask:
> >
> > 1. Why do you care?
>
> because of the waste of talent
>
> that gap represents a complete waste of talent,
> waste of opportunity and waste of investment
>
> The average SAT score is far lower and thats the
> average of a far smaller proportion of kids - who
> should be expected to score better as they're the
> top of the curve
>
> why would you send your kids to a school where
> they're less likely to take SAT's and if they do
> are likely to score far lower - ditto SOLs
>
>
> why do you think its okay to force people to send
> their kids there?

I don't think you should be forced to send your kids there - sell your house, home-school or send to private school if you wish, hell - pupil-place to your heart's content and shove 12 AP courses down Junior's throat at Madison or Oakton till he cries "Uncle" at 2:00 AM some morning.

Just don't tell the rest of us that it's a matter of principle for you because you're SO concerned about the waste of human talent at South Lakes or any high school. I don't buy it and, except for the merry band of posters who repeatedly reinforce their own sense of insult and injury here, very few others in the county do, either.

You do have a choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Sorry, I wish I could provide names and
> scenarios,
> > but I won't violate their privacy. I know that
> 2
> > of the parents I am speaking about do not work
> > anywhere near Oakton (both work in the
> elementary
> > school level) and I'm not sure about the other
> > although I know she also works in an elementary
> > school too. It's an unfair perk any way you
> look
> > at it. They are getting head of the line
> > pivileges. Sorry you don't see it that way,
> but
> > it's true. The only way to even the playing
> field
> > is to allow all students to be able to PP to
> > schools nearest their parent's employment.
> > Otherwise, the FCPS employees are getting a
> > benefit that others are not.
>
> I don't need their names or want them. The policy
> is the policy, so somehow they are getting around
> it. Perhaps the ES feeds into Oakton, and in that
> case they could do it, but if it doesn't feed into
> the MS that feeds into Oakton, they are pupil
> placed for some reason other than their parent's
> work place. It is not a matter of how "I see it"
>
>
> Their is no need to level the playing field. I am
> sorry you feel that there is a need to do that.
> Your opinion makes things in your view valid, but
> that is just not so. As you can see from the
> pupil placement form they should be using either
> their workplace, or the closest school to their
> workplace, and in some cases as perhaps this the
> feeder hs from their work place.
>
> If they have gone around the legalities that is
> another issue. Just like many parents drive their
> kids to bus stops that go to their pupil placed
> schools to avoid transporting their kids all the
> way...not allowed but it does happen.
>
> In most cases it would be difficult for a staff
> memeber to pupil place to a school that is "no
> where near their school workplace" because of the
> issues of transporting their kids...would make
> life and the commute more difficult rather than
> easier.


I am sure these families have not lied to the schools; afterall, it is very easy to check on someone's employment. At the same time, they are being allowed to PP in a school that is not nearest their home nor employment. FCPS seems to be making up the rules and interpreting the rules on a willy nilly basis, so nothing surprises me. At the same time, I don't think it's fair or appropriate for FCPS employees to get special treatment in terms of school placement period. It creates an unfair playing field for other county residents. Again, I think FCPS should encourage their employees to attend their home-based school. Would Ford encourage employees to drive a Chevy? (I couldn't resist using your retail analogy again.)

Fair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> I am sure these families have not lied to the
> schools; afterall, it is very easy to check on
> someone's employment. At the same time, they are
> being allowed to PP in a school that is not
> nearest their home nor employment. FCPS seems to
> be making up the rules and interpreting the rules
> on a willy nilly basis, so nothing surprises me.
> At the same time, I don't think it's fair or
> appropriate for FCPS employees to get special
> treatment in terms of school placement period. It
> creates an unfair playing field for other county
> residents. Again, I think FCPS should encourage
> their employees to attend their home-based school.

I didn't say they were lying about their employment. Perhaps they are using another reason for their pupil placement. Does the ES feed into the HS?
>

You know those families could be pupil placing simply as FCPS families and utilizing curricular reasons. You haven't shared how they did this, you only assume that FCPs is doing things "willy nilly" The form states clearly what is allowed and what isn't what allowed for employees. Since you know these families, and "know what they did" you could ask how. Or perhaps this is your motus operandi: "why waste time trying to discover the truth when you can so easily create it?"

You do have a choice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know those families could be pupil placing
> simply as FCPS families and utilizing curricular
> reasons. You haven't shared how they did this,
> you only assume that FCPs is doing things "willy
> nilly" The form states clearly what is allowed and
> what isn't what allowed for employees. Since you
> know these families, and "know what they did" you
> could ask how. Or perhaps this is your motus
> operandi: "why waste time trying to discover the
> truth when you can so easily create it?"


Why would I waste my time, your time or anybody's time with a fabrication? (BTW, it's modus operandi not motus) I want answers and information just like everybody else on this forum. All three families/students want AP versus IB. Each was first routed to Herndon (because Herndon is nearest their home). Then, each pulled the "I work for FCPS card" and got PP'd to Oakton. As I said before, I KNOW that 2 are employed at elementary schools that are not anywhere near Oakton. I don't know how they DID this when the all mighty rules state otherwise. All I know is that they told me they got Oakton because they're employed by FCPS. I am not going to grill them on "how did you get in since it is against the rules." I am just stating that their kids got in to Oakton and they work in FCPS schools that are nowhere near Oakton. I'm sorry if the truth offends you somehow--or if you tried to do the same thing and were told no. Again, I think this shows how willy nilly the process is--and how funny exceptions are everywhere (in small numbers.)

Any one knows whether there is anyway out for FM, MI and Floris? If a new board comes would they restore these areas to their origianal schools? Any such thing happened in the past? or are these three areas now done for as far as their schools are concerned.

The writing is on the wall - MOVE


is there any way out? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any one knows whether there is anyway out for FM,
> MI and Floris? If a new board comes would they
> restore these areas to their origianal schools?
> Any such thing happened in the past? or are these
> three areas now done for as far as their schools
> are concerned.

Puhleese - you can answer your own question about the concern over the lesser percentage of students at South Lakes taking the SAT's. There is a perception - and I mean just that - a perception - that the students who do not take the SAT's are more likely to be disruptive, act out, and be intimidating and sometimes violent. And likewise they are perceived to require resources that fall more within the category of maintenance and advanced child care rather than education. For parents striving to instill a sense of excellence, these perceptions are at their least a distraction. It is my view that these perceptions at South Lakes are overblown, -- good students with a sense of purpose and parental guidance will indeed be challenged and may find the smaller competitive landscape to their ultimate liking, but the perceptions have some basis in fact. The best way to put those perceptions in the most balanced light is to have candor about the situation, which invariably means to some degree acknowledging the problems, while at the same time explaining what is done to keep them in check. That approach appears a little too much to expect for the school system, which appears overwhelmingly concerned with appearances and not hurting feelings. But given your responses, I am confident you are aware of what I have described.

forget it. It is not worth your time. Pupil place, send to private, relocate, rent a house in oakton, etc, etc, so many options


quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Puhleese - you can answer your own question about
> the concern over the lesser percentage of students
> at South Lakes taking the SAT's. There is a
> perception - and I mean just that - a perception -
> that the students who do not take the SAT's are
> more likely to be disruptive, act out, and be
> intimidating and sometimes violent. And likewise
> they are perceived to require resources that fall
> more within the category of maintenance and
> advanced child care rather than education. For
> parents striving to instill a sense of excellence,
> these perceptions are at their least a
> distraction. It is my view that these
> perceptions at South Lakes are overblown, -- good
> students with a sense of purpose and parental
> guidance will indeed be challenged and may find
> the smaller competitive landscape to their
> ultimate liking, but the perceptions have some
> basis in fact. The best way to put those
> perceptions in the most balanced light is to have
> candor about the situation, which invariably means
> to some degree acknowledging the problems, while
> at the same time explaining what is done to keep
> them in check. That approach appears a little too
> much to expect for the school system, which
> appears overwhelmingly concerned with appearances
> and not hurting feelings. But given your
> responses, I am confident you are aware of what I
> have described.

Quantum, do not waste another minute on this site. You are preaching to a choir that is so lacking in imagination and breadth as to take my breath away. I have never seen such a lot of parents wallowing in victimhood as are posting here. It is actually pathetic.

I know for a fact that teachers at Hayfield PP their children into SOCO when everyone has stated that it is over capacity.

Are people in western Fairfax county able to PP their children into schools that are overcapacity?

Not everyone plays by the same rules.

Fair wrote;


Sorry, I wish I could provide names and scenarios, but I won't violate their privacy. I know that 2 of the parents I am speaking about do not work anywhere near Oakton (both work in the elementary school level) and I'm not sure about the other although I know she also works in an elementary school too. It's an unfair perk any way you look at it. They are getting head of the line pivileges. Sorry you don't see it that way, but it's true. The only way to even the playing field is to allow all students to be able to PP to schools nearest their parent's employment. Otherwise, the FCPS employees are getting a benefit that others are not. (I see you have dropped your retail discount analogy...smart move.)

The Board must have responded to the lawsuit by yesterday. Does anyone have any information on this? Did they submit a demurrer, which Thomas Moore was so sure about?

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Board must have responded to the lawsuit by
> yesterday. Does anyone have any information on
> this? Did they submit a demurrer, which Thomas
> Moore was so sure about?


Isn't there a court hearing scheduled for in early July for this lawsuit?

According to my son's guidance counselor at Westfield, 9 classes have been cancelled next year due to WHS's "drop in enrollment". WHS will also "lose teaching staff." See how this redistricting impacts everybody?

Here are the classes that WHS "will no longer offer": Shakespeare; Speech Communication; Reasoning Skills; AP European History; Office Administration; Advanced Programming; AP Art History; and Jewelry and Light Metals 1&2.

Weren't students redistricted to SL to give the SL students equal access to classes, like Jewelry Making? Well now Westfield has lost lots of classes, including the infamous Jewelry Making.

WHS Parents-

Stop playing the poor helpless victim. Buck up.

WHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to my son's guidance counselor at
> Westfield, 9 classes have been cancelled next year
> due to WHS's "drop in enrollment". WHS will also
> "lose teaching staff." See how this redistricting
> impacts everybody?
>
> Here are the classes that WHS "will no longer
> offer": Shakespeare; Speech Communication;
> Reasoning Skills; AP European History; Office
> Administration; Advanced Programming; AP Art
> History; and Jewelry and Light Metals 1&2.
>
> Weren't students redistricted to SL to give the SL
> students equal access to classes, like Jewelry
> Making? Well now Westfield has lost lots of
> classes, including the infamous Jewelry Making.


Across the county courses are being cut due to the budget issues. At my sons' (IB) HS a number of the science courses are being cut as well as some electives. So, perhaps some of the course cuts at WHS are due to the budget issues and not the re-districting (after all were only the kids being redistricted signing up for those courses?)

Westfield loses classes, SL did not add releveant classes - Added Culinary Arts , the students from WHS are dispersed via pupil placement between Madison, Herndon, and Oakton - there are not enough in any one school to add a AP class. The net result is every one lost. The only winner is the Culinary classes at SL.

Further proof that this school board is full of self serving politicians.

WHS Parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to my son's guidance counselor at
> Westfield, 9 classes have been cancelled next year
> due to WHS's "drop in enrollment". WHS will also
> "lose teaching staff." See how this redistricting
> impacts everybody?
>
> Here are the classes that WHS "will no longer
> offer": Shakespeare; Speech Communication;
> Reasoning Skills; AP European History; Office
> Administration; Advanced Programming; AP Art
> History; and Jewelry and Light Metals 1&2.
>
> Weren't students redistricted to SL to give the SL
> students equal access to classes, like Jewelry
> Making? Well now Westfield has lost lots of
> classes, including the infamous Jewelry Making.

Only freshman are moved for the 2008-09 school year and they take bio but a principal might have to re-allocate/reduce staff for the class size increase. A no-frills elementary school could lose 3 teachers. The budget might be tighter next year.

The migration from prince William plus other ESOL increases also uses up budget money. Those AP v IB issues are relevant and were ignored by the school board. All the extras for IB might have been 1/3 of the amount of the class size increase.

I don't know but special interests [not special ed] clearly drive this school division. How's the fast tracked South County Middle school going to be paid for?

AP vs IB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WHS Parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > According to my son's guidance counselor at
> > Westfield, 9 classes have been cancelled next
> year
> > due to WHS's "drop in enrollment". WHS will
> also
> > "lose teaching staff." See how this
> redistricting
> > impacts everybody?
> >
> > Here are the classes that WHS "will no longer
> > offer": Shakespeare; Speech Communication;
> > Reasoning Skills; AP European History; Office
> > Administration; Advanced Programming; AP Art
> > History; and Jewelry and Light Metals 1&2.
> >
> > Weren't students redistricted to SL to give the
> SL
> > students equal access to classes, like Jewelry
> > Making? Well now Westfield has lost lots of
> > classes, including the infamous Jewelry Making.
>
>
> Across the county courses are being cut due to the
> budget issues. At my sons' (IB) HS a number of
> the science courses are being cut as well as some
> electives. So, perhaps some of the course cuts at
> WHS are due to the budget issues and not the
> re-districting (after all were only the kids being
> redistricted signing up for those courses?)


I heard that SL will be losing 2 teachers and 9 classes (classes, not courses). These cuts will be made at the upper grades (thankfully) and won't affect the new kids being dragged in by the RD.

Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing or going to private.

>
> I heard that SL will be losing 2 teachers and 9
> classes (classes, not courses). These cuts will
> be made at the upper grades (thankfully) and won't
> affect the new kids being dragged in by the RD.

"Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing or going to private."

Does anyone have any reliable figures about this? I know a lot who are pupil placing and a lot who aren't. I think that neither group feels good about this whole thing because no matter which choice we made, our kids are being seperated from some friends.

Difficult to quantify in numbers + fcps and SB will definitely lie on this. From talking to community, all families that had planned on their kids taking AP have already pupil placed. Remember even at Oakton/WHS not all kids took AP. those who did not want to take advanced courses mostly did not pupil place. I came across only one instance where a student took AP solely to pupil place out of SL. I hear few applied to private.
After months of arguments I came to the conclusion that if your kid is smart and eager/capable to take AP, sending to SL makes no sense. If anyway your kid was not planning on AP, SL is probably ok. After all this RD drama, I met a kid who was horrified even at the prospect of going to SL. If that is the case the parents should probably make a effort to place elsewhere. Then you have to consider the hassle of transportation every day; that might make you think that moving is a good idea, but take a look at the prices of houses being sold. Driving to and from school wont look as bad :)

are there numbers available? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing or
> going to private."
>
> Does anyone have any reliable figures about this?
> I know a lot who are pupil placing and a lot who
> aren't. I think that neither group feels good
> about this whole thing because no matter which
> choice we made, our kids are being seperated from
> some friends.

numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Difficult to quantify in numbers + fcps and SB
> will definitely lie on this. From talking to
> community, all families that had planned on their
> kids taking AP have already pupil placed. Remember
> even at Oakton/WHS not all kids took AP. those
> who did not want to take advanced courses mostly
> did not pupil place. I came across only one
> instance where a student took AP solely to pupil
> place out of SL. I hear few applied to private.
> After months of arguments I came to the conclusion
> that if your kid is smart and eager/capable to
> take AP, sending to SL makes no sense. If anyway
> your kid was not planning on AP, SL is probably
> ok. After all this RD drama, I met a kid who was
> horrified even at the prospect of going to SL. If
> that is the case the parents should probably make
> a effort to place elsewhere. Then you have to
> consider the hassle of transportation every day;
> that might make you think that moving is a good
> idea, but take a look at the prices of houses
> being sold. Driving to and from school wont look
> as bad :)
>
Well, that planning advice is about as incoherent as one could hope for - guess the author must have attended an IB school!

"If anyway your kid was not planning on AP" - is this what 8th graders (as opposed to their parents) puzzle over in their free time?

Parents should send kid to school other than SL because he is "horrified even at the prospect" of attending South Lakes? May be other reasons not to send kid to South Lakes, but catering to a 14 year old's budding wimpiness is not one of the more compelling.

Please stop being so silly and making Stuart Gibson look good in comparison.

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The Board must have responded to the lawsuit by yesterday. Does anyone have any information on this? Did they submit a demurrer, which Thomas Moore was so sure about?< <

The pleading file is not currently available for public perusal. Judge McWeeney's law clerk has it.

The case has already had a scheduling conference (which is a little early) and a 3 hour hearing is set for July.

What the hearing is for is not clear from the docket.

These are teenagers. Ever argued with one and come out of the argument on the winning side?

> Parents should send kid to school other than SL
> because he is "horrified even at the prospect" of
> attending South Lakes? May be other reasons not
> to send kid to South Lakes, but catering to a 14
> year old's budding wimpiness is not one of the
> more compelling.




Say What? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> numbers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Difficult to quantify in numbers + fcps and SB
> > will definitely lie on this. From talking to
> > community, all families that had planned on
> their
> > kids taking AP have already pupil placed.
> Remember
> > even at Oakton/WHS not all kids took AP. those
> > who did not want to take advanced courses
> mostly
> > did not pupil place. I came across only one
> > instance where a student took AP solely to
> pupil
> > place out of SL. I hear few applied to private.
>
> > After months of arguments I came to the
> conclusion
> > that if your kid is smart and eager/capable to
> > take AP, sending to SL makes no sense. If
> anyway
> > your kid was not planning on AP, SL is probably
> > ok. After all this RD drama, I met a kid who
> was
> > horrified even at the prospect of going to SL.
> If
> > that is the case the parents should probably
> make
> > a effort to place elsewhere. Then you have to
> > consider the hassle of transportation every
> day;
> > that might make you think that moving is a good
> > idea, but take a look at the prices of houses
> > being sold. Driving to and from school wont
> look
> > as bad :)
> >
> Well, that planning advice is about as incoherent
> as one could hope for - guess the author must have
> attended an IB school!
>
> "If anyway your kid was not planning on AP" - is
> this what 8th graders (as opposed to their
> parents) puzzle over in their free time?
>
> Parents should send kid to school other than SL
> because he is "horrified even at the prospect" of
> attending South Lakes? May be other reasons not
> to send kid to South Lakes, but catering to a 14
> year old's budding wimpiness is not one of the
> more compelling.
>
> Please stop being so silly and making Stuart
> Gibson look good in comparison.

The pleadings in the case are public record the second they are received by the Clerk of the Court (not Judge McWeeney's law clerk). If the County has filed anything, it is available. You may have to go to the Court to copy it, or to have access to it (as opposed to any online system that the Court may have), but it is available.

Of course, the County may have received and extension of time to answer (very common), so the responsive pleading may not yet be available.

I am commenting only on the access to filed documents, I have no idea as to what has or has not been scheduled for July.

> > The Board must have responded to the lawsuit
> by yesterday. Does anyone have any information on
> this? Did they submit a demurrer, which Thomas
> Moore was so sure about?< <
>
> The pleading file is not currently available for
> public perusal. Judge McWeeney's law clerk has
> it.
>
> The case has already had a scheduling conference
> (which is a little early) and a 3 hour hearing is
> set for July.
>
> What the hearing is for is not clear from the
> docket.

are there numbers available? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing or
> going to private."
>
> Does anyone have any reliable figures about this?
> I know a lot who are pupil placing and a lot who
> aren't. I think that neither group feels good
> about this whole thing because no matter which
> choice we made, our kids are being seperated from
> some friends.


There were at least 60 or 70 kids from Fox Mill at the SL welcome event in March. While a few may not be attending (and are still trying to pupil place) most are stuck. The idea that they can just pupil place or go to private school is very presumptuous. Fox Mill is not a wealthy community, so many can't even consider private school. And, only those with siblings at Oakton, those taking Geometry in 8th grade, those taking American Sign language (not a cure since it is only a 2 year course and they will ship you back to your home school or the closest AP school after 10th grade), or those with parents who work for FCPS can pupil place to Oakton. It may surprise people who are "no IB at any cost" but most families who have tried to pupil place have been routed to Herndon--and most don't want to go there. The kids know no one there and it's typically in the opposite direction of where families want to be in the morning. So the idea that students can JUST pupil place (oh,it's not a problem) is just not true. And, you're right, no one feels good about this. Long-term classmates are being split and while some have resigned themselves to the situation, the vast majority are still mighty pissed at the School Board.

If the school board admits a student can pupil place for AP, then it should have the guts to let them go back to their origianl school, considering the social impacts, as opposed to sending them to a different pyramids. Or, are they trying to use all their power to ursher the students to SL and admit Herndon HS is less desiable than Oakton HS?

Huh? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> are there numbers available? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing or
> > going to private."
> >
> > Does anyone have any reliable figures about
> this?
> > I know a lot who are pupil placing and a lot
> who
> > aren't. I think that neither group feels good
> > about this whole thing because no matter which
> > choice we made, our kids are being seperated
> from
> > some friends.
>
>
> There were at least 60 or 70 kids from Fox Mill at
> the SL welcome event in March. While a few may
> not be attending (and are still trying to pupil
> place) most are stuck. The idea that they can
> just pupil place or go to private school is very
> presumptuous. Fox Mill is not a wealthy
> community, so many can't even consider private
> school. And, only those with siblings at Oakton,
> those taking Geometry in 8th grade, those taking
> American Sign language (not a cure since it is
> only a 2 year course and they will ship you back
> to your home school or the closest AP school after
> 10th grade), or those with parents who work for
> FCPS can pupil place to Oakton. It may surprise
> people who are "no IB at any cost" but most
> families who have tried to pupil place have been
> routed to Herndon--and most don't want to go
> there. The kids know no one there and it's
> typically in the opposite direction of where
> families want to be in the morning. So the idea
> that students can JUST pupil place (oh,it's not a
> problem) is just not true. And, you're right, no
> one feels good about this. Long-term classmates
> are being split and while some have resigned
> themselves to the situation, the vast majority are
> still mighty pissed at the School Board.


I am just curious, what is the verdict on Herndon High School? Why does anyone from Fox Mill not want to go to Herndon HS? In addition, Floris is forced into Herndon as they have closed Westfield on them because it is not the closest AP school.

Jack Dale needs to stand up and let these kids go back to their base school if they do not want the IB program and prefer AP program.

Sad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the school board admits a student can pupil
> place for AP, then it should have the guts to let
> them go back to their origianl school, considering
> the social impacts, as opposed to sending them to
> a different pyramids. Or, are they trying to use
> all their power to ursher the students to SL and
> admit Herndon HS is less desiable than Oakton HS?


You kidding !!

Why should the school board think about what a kid thinks? They are administrators not human beings. They know how to make rules and enforce them. And in addition, if they let the kids go to their base school what did they achieve with all this time and money they put in the RD.

This is their way of forcing kids to SL. Parents will get tired of driving kids around, all the hassles associated with pupil placement and they will give up. This is what they are hoping for. This is what Tisdatt said during RD "We are not expecting all RD'ed kids to show up the first year but eventually they will show up." And if they don't get the numbers they want, they will do it again in a couple of years.

What I can't understand is why Floris students can't pupil-place for AP at Westfield if the Westfield principal will sign the form. It is ridiculous that anyone else would care.

And Herndon parents I know are very happy with the school. Those Westfield kids being forced to go to Herndon because the "rules" say they can't go to Westfield will never end up at South Lakes because they don't want the IB program.

Oh, and congratulations to the SB and SLPTSA. It looks like you RDed more kids into Oakton than into South Lakes. Great work. The welcome meeting for those RDed into Oakton was packed.

numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These are teenagers. Ever argued with one and come
> out of the argument on the winning side?
>
Yes.

You can then rest assured that, in the future, he or she will be equally, if not more, "horrified" when you suggest a haircut that costs less than $50, a laptop that costs less than $1500, shoes that cost less than $150 and/or a used car that costs less than $15,000. And, since you were the one who made sure he/she went to, say, Oakton, you'll be responsible for his/her need to keep up appearances.

navy parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I can't understand is why Floris students
> can't pupil-place for AP at Westfield if the
> Westfield principal will sign the form. It is
> ridiculous that anyone else would care.
>
> And Herndon parents I know are very happy with the
> school. Those Westfield kids being forced to go
> to Herndon because the "rules" say they can't go
> to Westfield will never end up at South Lakes
> because they don't want the IB program.
>
> Oh, and congratulations to the SB and SLPTSA. It
> looks like you RDed more kids into Oakton than
> into South Lakes. Great work. The welcome
> meeting for those RDed into Oakton was packed.


This is what frustrates me the most. Some arcane rule of "School closest to base school or home address" when it comes to pupil placement. This rule was in place before this RD took place. Can the rule still be religiously applied? Circumstances have changed and they have not gone back and looked at the rule (or guideline so to speak). Bruce Butler has adamantly refused to sign off on Westfield as receiving high school and caused a lot of damage to these kids's psyche. They are smarter than what the SB thinks and they will be bitter no matter where they end.

Nice way to treat the children that you are supposed to educate !!

Seriously, RDed folks that are pupil-placing will NOT end up eventually at SLHS. Given that most students are capable of driving themselves to school sometime during their sophomore year, why would transportation be a problem over the long-term?

All this RD has done for the Floris area is educate them in the ways to get around being RDed. They now know, without a doubt, that the only mechanism for getting what they want for their kids is to arrange it themselves through pupil-placing, moving houses, or going to private schools.

Hendon_HS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > are there numbers available? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > "Which new kids? Most RDed are pupil placing
> or
> > > going to private."
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any reliable figures about
> > this?
> > > I know a lot who are pupil placing and a lot
> > who
> > > aren't. I think that neither group feels good
> > > about this whole thing because no matter
> which
> > > choice we made, our kids are being seperated
> > from
> > > some friends.
> >
> >
> > There were at least 60 or 70 kids from Fox Mill
> at
> > the SL welcome event in March. While a few may
> > not be attending (and are still trying to pupil
> > place) most are stuck. The idea that they can
> > just pupil place or go to private school is
> very
> > presumptuous. Fox Mill is not a wealthy
> > community, so many can't even consider private
> > school. And, only those with siblings at
> Oakton,
> > those taking Geometry in 8th grade, those
> taking
> > American Sign language (not a cure since it is
> > only a 2 year course and they will ship you
> back
> > to your home school or the closest AP school
> after
> > 10th grade), or those with parents who work for
> > FCPS can pupil place to Oakton. It may
> surprise
> > people who are "no IB at any cost" but most
> > families who have tried to pupil place have
> been
> > routed to Herndon--and most don't want to go
> > there. The kids know no one there and it's
> > typically in the opposite direction of where
> > families want to be in the morning. So the
> idea
> > that students can JUST pupil place (oh,it's not
> a
> > problem) is just not true. And, you're right,
> no
> > one feels good about this. Long-term
> classmates
> > are being split and while some have resigned
> > themselves to the situation, the vast majority
> are
> > still mighty pissed at the School Board.
>
>
> I am just curious, what is the verdict on Herndon
> High School? Why does anyone from Fox Mill not
> want to go to Herndon HS? In addition, Floris is
> forced into Herndon as they have closed Westfield
> on them because it is not the closest AP school.
>
> Jack Dale needs to stand up and let these kids go
> back to their base school if they do not want the
> IB program and prefer AP program.


Herndon_HS, Please re-read my post. My comment was not about folks not liking or wanting Herndon HS. As I said above, Fox Mill children generally don't know kids from Herndon HS--and many have neighborly/friends connections to Oakton. So, why would they want to go to a schoo where they know virtually no one. AND, most families I know have parents who work toward Tysons/Beltway, so going to Herndon HS is going in the wrong direction. Just think of the bite in your mornng, if you had to drive round trip (40 minutes in rush hour) to drop your kid at school to just end up where you first started. For many people, it is not workable on many levels.

Does anyone know how many of the RD'd either pupil placed out of SLHS or just arent going? I am betting they are getting many. I have heard that Bruce Butler has met with a lot of parents over the past couple of months.

Pupil Placed Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know how many of the RD'd either pupil
> placed out of SLHS or just arent going? I am
> betting they are getting many. I have heard that
> Bruce Butler has met with a lot of parents over
> the past couple of months.


It is hard to tell since we keep getting mixed stories of how many RDed kids are going to SL and how many have been pupil-placed out of SL. I guess we would have to wait until in the fall when FCPS reports the # of membership for each high school. I just hope FCPS does not fudge the numbers.

I have heard that CAPS has a pretty good count. I agree that we may have to wait, of course there may be an injunction in July and then it's moot.

Pupil Placed Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... of course there may be an injunction in July and then it's moot.

Much as I hope that is the case, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Did anyone else see the letter dated 2/7/08 addressed to Thomas Rust from Stephanie Hamlett who is Deputy Attorney General for Virginia?

The decision apparently will be based on the definition of "will contribute to the efficiency of the school division" as based in Section 22.1-79(4). Of course efficiency is not defined.

Given the absence of a definition, the word has ordinary meaning. Defined as "the ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system".

My guess is the Anti RD crowd will have to prove that this redistricting did not make the affected schools more efficient.

Did it save the school system money? Did it improve test scores? How do we define efficiency when it comes to redistricting? It make take years to prove this redistricting was efficient.

legal opinion - I don't think that your statement is precise enough. The plaintiffs will have to prove that the redistricting did not contribute to the efficiency of the school division. This is different than have to prove that the schools are not now more efficient. The contribution standard seems ridiculously low. Inasmuch as SLHS was under or lesser utilized, and even taking the facts most favorable to the plaintiffs, I would think it is a relatively easy argument to make that the SB merely was allocating students to a better source of asset utilization, and that accordingly any further scrutiny should be foreclosed. But that is just as I see it - I don't understand the unemotional reasons for the lawsuit.

Just becuase SL was under enrolled the SB cannot use that execuse to use any criteria to fill those spaces. Lets take the simple case which everyone can understand. What if the SB said lets put all african americans from a surrounding school into SL to fill the empty spaces. That would qualify better utilization of resources but is againt the law. In this case SB did not use race, but used socio economic data, which also happens to be beyond what is allowed.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> legal opinion - I don't think that your statement
> is precise enough. The plaintiffs will have to
> prove that the redistricting did not contribute to
> the efficiency of the school division. This is
> different than have to prove that the schools are
> not now more efficient. The contribution standard
> seems ridiculously low. Inasmuch as SLHS was under
> or lesser utilized, and even taking the facts most
> favorable to the plaintiffs, I would think it is a
> relatively easy argument to make that the SB
> merely was allocating students to a better source
> of asset utilization, and that accordingly any
> further scrutiny should be foreclosed. But that
> is just as I see it - I don't understand the
> unemotional reasons for the lawsuit.

Every thing that this SB said is a lie. Why would this be any different.

> I just hope FCPS does not fudge the
> numbers.




Baffled Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pupil Placed Numbers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone know how many of the RD'd either
> pupil
> > placed out of SLHS or just arent going? I am
> > betting they are getting many. I have heard
> that
> > Bruce Butler has met with a lot of parents over
> > the past couple of months.
>
>
> It is hard to tell since we keep getting mixed
> stories of how many RDed kids are going to SL and
> how many have been pupil-placed out of SL. I
> guess we would have to wait until in the fall when
> FCPS reports the # of membership for each high
> school. I just hope FCPS does not fudge the
> numbers.

Step 1: Win the court case and reverse the SB ruling
Step 2: Recall Stu Gibson so that RD cannot happen again
Step 3: Turn SL into IB acadamy
Step 4: Send other SL kids to Langley and Madison
Step 5: Have a party.

I thought step 1 was steal underwear and step 3 was profit.

quantum,
Moving Navy students to Navy does NOT contribute to efficiency, moving students out of Westfield (to leave brand new addition empty) does NOT contribute to efficiency. The regulation "will contribute to the efficiency of the school division" -- it's the school division, ie Western county schools in the study, not THE school aka SL, correct?

Duh, Dont you know that Mr. Stu Gibson on the board SL is the only school in FCPS.

Legal question Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> quantum,
> Moving Navy students to Navy does NOT contribute
> to efficiency, moving students out of Westfield
> (to leave brand new addition empty) does NOT
> contribute to efficiency. The regulation "will
> contribute to the efficiency of the school
> division" -- it's the school division, ie Western
> county schools in the study, not THE school aka
> SL, correct?

To determine if this RD accomplished efficiency you have to prove some benefit. Does the benefit have to be immediate? Who knows?

If South Lakes has more classes due to more students but Oakton and Westfield have less classes-how is that more efficient? You are shifting from one school to the next.

From what I understand, socioeconomic considerations are permitted if it contributes to this efficiency goal. If the SB claims empty seats dictated their decision, what explanantion do they have for leaving Mt Vernon alone??

It should be interesting.

Jester says - Word on the street is that Gibson is working another proposal to make SL HS the highest performing school. Highlights of his plan would be
Establish IB as the best option over AP. To do this AP will be removed from all other schools. With AP totally out of FCPS, the choice being IB or no IB, IB in SL will look good. (SB is still debating whether to shutdown TJ also as part of this plan) For scores the push will be reduce the scores at other schools to below SL. At all other schools class sizes can be increased, key facilites will be reduced till scores at other schools fall below SLHS.
It is a plan to get students to pupil place into SL rather than out it. This can work.

jester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jester says - Word on the street is that Gibson is
> working another proposal to make SL HS the highest
> performing school. Highlights of his plan would be
>
> Establish IB as the best option over AP. To do
> this AP will be removed from all other schools.
> With AP totally out of FCPS, the choice being IB
> or no IB, IB in SL will look good. (SB is still
> debating whether to shutdown TJ also as part of
> this plan) For scores the push will be reduce the
> scores at other schools to below SL. At all other
> schools class sizes can be increased, key
> facilites will be reduced till scores at other
> schools fall below SLHS.
> It is a plan to get students to pupil place into
> SL rather than out it. This can work.

The RD situation is ripe with the potential for satire, but this is pretty lame by any standard. I sure hope this was posted by a SL supporter who was poking fun at other sad attempts at humor by the anti-RD crowd.

ROTFL (Not) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jester Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jester says - Word on the street is that Gibson
> is
> > working another proposal to make SL HS the
> highest
> > performing school. Highlights of his plan would
> be
> >
> > Establish IB as the best option over AP. To do
> > this AP will be removed from all other schools.
> > With AP totally out of FCPS, the choice being
> IB
> > or no IB, IB in SL will look good. (SB is still
> > debating whether to shutdown TJ also as part of
> > this plan) For scores the push will be reduce
> the
> > scores at other schools to below SL. At all
> other
> > schools class sizes can be increased, key
> > facilites will be reduced till scores at other
> > schools fall below SLHS.
> > It is a plan to get students to pupil place
> into
> > SL rather than out it. This can work.
>
> The RD situation is ripe with the potential for
> satire, but this is pretty lame by any standard.
> I sure hope this was posted by a SL supporter who
> was poking fun at other sad attempts at humor by
> the anti-RD crowd.



Hah. The Anti-RD crowd wishes this was posted by a SL supporter, but no way.

Uber-lame, and with all ingredients of an anti-RD screed (rescue the SLHS dungeon dwellers at expense of everyone else, Gibson-phobia, blah blah).

Yawn-ola

law - let's assume that the SB used socio-economic data as a factor. I am not certain that that is subject to meeting the burdens of proof - but let's assume that they did. Why is that beyond what is "allowed?" Given the low standard of that of contributing to efficiency, it seems to be that socio-economic balancing would be permitted, especially since virtually any school could trot out statistics that lower socio-economic students are more expensive and any balancing therefore contributes to efficiency. Don't forget - there is considerable discretion accorded to Government officials in Virginia - they don't have to be "correct" - they only have to have a colorable basis for their actions. But I find arguing with those that are imbued with a false sense of confidence over the legal process, especially when the defendant is a government entity and an issue of discretion is involved, not very helpful. People are entitled to have all sorts of rosy expectations - they can deal with the consequences later.

To all in Western Fairfax County.

If you did not want to be RD, you should have payed off SB members like the people in SOCO did with Liz Bradsher in order for her to push for a new middle school.

Sounds corrupt to me.



Re: New School Board Members
Posted by: We love you Lizzie!! (IP Logged)
Date: May 02, 2008 03:11PM


This post is a tribute to newbie Liz Bradsher in honor of all she has done and who she has taken care of.

BTW, Lizzie-if you are reading this, did our checks clear yet??

Bradsher Contributors:

Dave Albo - now we know why he is at these SOCO meetings.

William Bachman Fairfax Station 22039

Lawrence Berberian Crosspointe 22039

Jose Cecin Fairfax Station 22039

Peter Dickinson Lorton 22029

Anne Gallant Fairfax Station 22039

Christopher Joseph Fairfax Station 22039

Thomas Moore Fairfax Station 22039

Jeff Fuchs Fairfax Station 22039

Joseph Shirvan Fairfax Station 22039

Michael Powell Fairfax Station 22039

John Rowley III Fairfax Station 22039

Tom Davis ?????????? What does he want do you suppose???

Robert Robertory Fairfax Station 22039

These contributors are all paying Liz for their new school. There does not seem to be any money poring in from outside SOCO community.

WAKE UP WEST SPRINGFIELD PARENTS!!!! If you want your school renovated before it crumbles you need to pay the piper.

Keep up the good work Lizzie. You are worth every penny we spent on you!!

FCPS has to be madly scrambling to structure South Lakes right now so that they can demonstrate the "efficiency" argument. Reshuffle the students around-if any students show up??

What about the argument that IB is so much more expensive? If the SB targeted high achiever students who will likely enroll in IB, you have just doubled the cost of educating these kids (vs AP). Hardly efficient??

Any change in standardized scores won't be seen for years-if at all. And what was the overall "cost" of this project? Time wasted, goodwill damaged, parents exiting for private schools, etc.

I think it is going to be difficult for FCPS to quantify that they made the world better for humanity.

None of the plaintiffs arguments relate to the quality or efficacy of the IB program. It is one of many programs that FCPS offers. I don't see the relevance.

And if the legal standard applicable to any Government entity is making things better for humanity, there would be lawsuits in the thousands that such Government entities would lose. I don't think that is the case.

All of these kinds of arguments are great for the political arena, but finding their way through the narrow doors of a courthouse (and they are always narrower with a Government entity) is quite another thing.

We need to make our schools better. Lawsuits will not do it.

Do you mean make south lakes better at the cost of other schools?

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> We need to make our schools better. Lawsuits will
> not do it.

better sl only? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you mean make south lakes better at the cost of
> other schools?
>
> quantum Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
>
> > We need to make our schools better. Lawsuits
> will
> > not do it.

Read Quantum's other posts - it's pretty clear that this is not his point. He actually believes that some posters want to debate these issues on substantive grounds and not simply flame one another. I don't agree with all his posts, but it's clear that his view that the RD lawsuit is unlikely to succeed reflects his own assessment as to whether the plaintiffs have a valid legal case, not whether they have legitimate concerns about the RD or the FFX schools.

Yes. Most likely the lawsuit will fail - the SB has the legal power to do RD. There is a good faith assumption that the SB will take a balanced decision based on needs of all affected parties. There is no doubt in my mind that this SB subverted the process by back room dealings and abused their power to enrich south lakes at the detriment of all the other parties involved.

Not So Obvious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> better sl only? Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Do you mean make south lakes better at the cost
> of
> > other schools?
> >
> > quantum Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> >
> > > We need to make our schools better. Lawsuits
> > will
> > > not do it.
>
> Read Quantum's other posts - it's pretty clear
> that this is not his point. He actually believes
> that some posters want to debate these issues on
> substantive grounds and not simply flame one
> another. I don't agree with all his posts, but
> it's clear that his view that the RD lawsuit is
> unlikely to succeed reflects his own assessment as
> to whether the plaintiffs have a valid legal case,
> not whether they have legitimate concerns about
> the RD or the FFX schools.

Even the people on the fence now are afraid of sending to SL questioning how much of an acadamic hit their children will take. The IB program has been tarnished in the perception of a lot of people. These perceptions matter - In word of mouth which is how people ask and get recommendations - perception becomes reality.

better sl only? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes. Most likely the lawsuit will fail - the SB
> has the legal power to do RD. There is a good
> faith assumption that the SB will take a balanced
> decision based on needs of all affected parties.
> There is no doubt in my mind that this SB
> subverted the process by back room dealings and
> abused their power to enrich south lakes at the
> detriment of all the other parties involved.
>
> Not So Obvious Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > better sl only? Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Do you mean make south lakes better at the
> cost
> > of
> > > other schools?
> > >
> > > quantum Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > >
> > > > We need to make our schools better.
> Lawsuits
> > > will
> > > > not do it.
> >
> > Read Quantum's other posts - it's pretty clear
> > that this is not his point. He actually
> believes
> > that some posters want to debate these issues
> on
> > substantive grounds and not simply flame one
> > another. I don't agree with all his posts, but
> > it's clear that his view that the RD lawsuit is
> > unlikely to succeed reflects his own assessment
> as
> > to whether the plaintiffs have a valid legal
> case,
> > not whether they have legitimate concerns about
> > the RD or the FFX schools.

Pupil Placed Numbers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know how many of the RD'd either pupil
> placed out of SLHS or just arent going? I am
> betting they are getting many. I have heard that
> Bruce Butler has met with a lot of parents over
> the past couple of months.

According to Butler "Only" 40 to 50% of the new students are pupil placing out. Of course Butler doesn't see those who are going to private school, so the percentage of those opting out of SL is likely to be somewhat higher. I'm betting they will get 50 RD students. Two additional classes for SL. BFD. Of course those won't be the top kids because the parents of top students will have figured out how to avoid SL.

quantum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> None of the plaintiffs arguments relate to the
> quality or efficacy of the IB program. It is one
> of many programs that FCPS offers. I don't see
> the relevance.
>
> And if the legal standard applicable to any
> Government entity is making things better for
> humanity, there would be lawsuits in the thousands
> that such Government entities would lose. I
> don't think that is the case.
>
> All of these kinds of arguments are great for the
> political arena, but finding their way through the
> narrow doors of a courthouse (and they are always
> narrower with a Government entity) is quite
> another thing.
>
> We need to make our schools better. Lawsuits will
> not do it.

How on earth would we do that? Surely you are aware that our school board and administration has little interest in improving schools and even less interest in what the citizens want. If they did care, students at SL wouldn't be stuck with IB.

The previous poster who mentioned the letter from the Atty. General missed the most relevant part. Socio Economics does not equate to efficiency under the laws that govern the commonwealth of VA. If the objective of the RD was in large part to balance socio economics the rest does not matter. FCPS exceded its authority by including in its RD criteria 'balancing of socio economics'. this opinion was clearly stated. Of course it is just an opinion.

Oh dear, Neen is back, too bad. And I was thinking she had gone on to harass some other topic. Perhaps she should take a few shots across the bow of FAIRGRADE. Oh wait, that might be too intimate and like shooting yourself in the foot. Well, also those CAPS people to play 'cozy' with.

Hey, I've been gone a while....any news on the redistricting? Did it go through?

Thanks!

You have to read lots of pages for all the details, but the simple answer is yes.

The SB voted to screw thousands of students and parents in western fairfax.



traveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, I've been gone a while....any news on the
> redistricting? Did it go through?
>
> Thanks!

Does anyone know about how the budget cut will impact the part time teachers? I heard that part time faculty are being targeted for cuts.

This is very distressing as the FSCB is exploring buying a new facility for administrators.

Is there anyway to identify the number of positions that are held by non teaching staff? How can those numbers be gathered?

edna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know about how the budget cut will
> impact the part time teachers? I heard that part
> time faculty are being targeted for cuts.
>
> This is very distressing as the FSCB is exploring
> buying a new facility for administrators.
>
> Is there anyway to identify the number of
> positions that are held by non teaching staff?
> How can those numbers be gathered?

Go to the fcps homepage and click on the budget links. The publc relations 5-2 marketing ploy on the budget says dollars are targeted to classrooms and teachers. Yeah right. Go to the boarddocs and read the potential real budget . For the 5-8 meeting or one thereafter they are talking about Gatehouse 2 and trying to relate it to tiny Graham rd elementary school possibly having it's students moved to devonshire. That means devonshire workers get the the new office building.

Not a done deal yet. Maybe they are all in connelly's territory- Providence district or 11th congressional like SOCO.

Rather than eliminating extras they cut cola, cut special ed pre-school, raised class sizes,build -expand extra.

Looking from the eyes of SB it is different. They voted to keep their political alliances intact, and Stu Gibson voted to keep his political base of Reston. The RD areas already had opposed him in the last election, while reston supported him. No other outcome was in the best political interests of the school board members. So the SB went through with the RD.

RD parent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have to read lots of pages for all the
> details, but the simple answer is yes.
>
> The SB voted to screw thousands of students and
> parents in western fairfax.
>
>
>
> traveler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey, I've been gone a while....any news on the
> > redistricting? Did it go through?
> >
> > Thanks!

The parents and students involved were just collateral damage. In the big picture polical scene of the school board members, these RDed families were too insignificant to even figure in the discussions

perspective Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looking from the eyes of SB it is different. They
> voted to keep their political alliances intact,
> and Stu Gibson voted to keep his political base of
> Reston. The RD areas already had opposed him in
> the last election, while reston supported him. No
> other outcome was in the best political interests
> of the school board members. So the SB went
> through with the RD.
>
> RD parent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You have to read lots of pages for all the
> > details, but the simple answer is yes.
> >
> > The SB voted to screw thousands of students and
> > parents in western fairfax.
> >
> >
> >
> > traveler Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Hey, I've been gone a while....any news on
> the
> > > redistricting? Did it go through?
> > >
> > > Thanks!

perspective Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The parents and students involved were just
> collateral damage. In the big picture polical
> scene of the school board members, these RDed
> families were too insignificant to even figure in
> the discussions
>
It's unfortunate that areas like Fox Mill and Floris get RD'd time and time again while Langley goes untouched. And number of kids at issue in Madison island was too small to make a difference - why RD them now?

On the other hand, Madison island is much, much closer to South Lakes than Madison - anyone driving around this area without a map of school boundaries in hand would have assumed those kids went to Hughes and SL. Apart from the argument that communities benefit when boundaries are left intact, there was no strong reason to keep sending those students to Thoreau and Madison when many areas much closer to both schools attend Kilmer and Marshall.

The issue is not whether socio-economics "equates" to efficiency. That is a meaningless semantic question. Rather, it is whether socio-economics, and the attendant burdens that certain socio-economic groups place on the schools, can be a factor in determining the allocation of resources and assignments. I would think that of course these factors can be considered (they in fact are all of the time), and hence to some considerable degree consideration of the same falls within the discretion of officials in making decisions.

How many times do you have to beat a dead horse?

Fox Mill is not redistricted 'time and time again.' It was last moved over 20 years ago.

Quoting second AG Letter

"The issue is not whether socio-economics "equates" to efficiency. That is a meaningless semantic question. Rather, it is whether socio-economics, and the attendant burdens that certain socio-economic groups place on the schools, can be a factor in determining the allocation of resources and assignments. I would think that of course these factors can be considered (they in fact are all of the time), and hence to some considerable degree consideration of the same falls within the discretion of officials in making decisions."


This may be your opinion but not the opinion given to Rust by the AG's office. Apparently you have not read the letter. The letter clearly stated that socio economics may not be used as a criteria and is not a factor which may lawfully be applied to such a decision. Hence to no considerable degree consideration of the same does not fall within the discretion of the officials making decisions.

traveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, I've been gone a while....any news on the
> redistricting? Did it go through?
>
> Thanks!

Yes, the redistricting passed by a landslide and without any problems. 10-2 in favor.

na na nanahhh all your kids are giong to south lakes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


deal with it if you dont wanna go move or pupil place

teeheee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> na na nanahhh all your kids are giong to south
> lakes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> deal with it if you dont wanna go move or pupil
> place


I love that such mature children spend time on this forum--and make sure valuable contributions. The sad thing about this (for the rising 9th graders) is that contrary to your na na nanahhh etc comment is that there are many that are not going to SL. Many are going to Oakton (probably a little more than a third) and a few are going private. The RD has split up this class--and many have been classmates for years.
For many reasons I hope the lawsuit is a success--and because it will be so late in the game that the school board members will have to hunker down WITH the Oakton and SL and Westfields and Madison principals and their staffs to undo this mess. I have a lovely imagine of Stu Gibson at 3 in the morning stuffing envelopes with the redone class schedules of all these students. Yes, I wish him and his 9 cronies a lovely August.

CAPS will not prevail. A pox on all of the plaintiffs for bringing it!

Whether CAPs prevails or not, SL is not getting the smart cream of the RDed students. Most have chosen to pupil place or move to pursue advanced academic opportunities.

Boo Hoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CAPS will not prevail. A pox on all of the
> plaintiffs for bringing it!

"Does not matter" How insulting you are to your own neighbors who are going to go to South Lakes, just to vent your own bitterness? They and South Lakes are better off without you or your spawn.